Free will

[Grimrock Litless]

The argument I make is that it is empirically impossible to prove 'free will' exists or that it does not exist. Thus belief, or non-belief, in the concept is largely conditioned by other beliefs we may hold. I made no claim as to the accuracy or provability of those beliefs, just their likely effect upon the believer. Personally, I see 'free will' much the same as I see 'deities' : their presence cant be proved, their absence likewise. Might as well toss a coin and go with that decision on it.

There is a name for those kind of statements, that you can't prove something doesn't exist, so it does exist, since one thing can only have, exist or not exist, but since you can't prove it doesn't exist, so it does. I forgot what was the name for those statements, but, I can prove that free will doesn't exist cus we already understand and knew that all our actions are just chemical reactions in a chained reaction that produce said, actions.

[Most Lee Harmless]

My statement was simple and neutral : you cant prove it exists, or prove it doesnt. :

What you can do is 'believe' it exists or doesnt exist based on your faith in the veracity of other beliefs you may hold, which, of course, need not be provable or have any scientific basis at all.

[Maha]

My statement was simple and neutral : you cant prove it exists, or prove it doesnt.

ever the sceptic

proving that anything exists is problematic, i cannot even prove that I exist, a problem that Socrates already wrestled with. so if no-one can prove that he/she e exists nor that the world around him/her does what does that leve us?

we adopt a point of view based on expedience or most logical argument or what feels right. others just embrace the going worldview without a conscious decision in that matter. however, in my observation even those who embrace 'no free will' still live as if they have it. i wrote about the before.that's no proof that there is free will, only that the going predominant worldview subscribes to it.

Danik, i reacted to your post because i found the argument that an omnipotent God counters free will faulty.

[Most Lee Harmless]

Omnipotence is the key : if a deity can intervene and thwart your free will, then, actually, you dont have it, save at their leave. With an omnipotent deity free will is no better than a dog, running around the park who may sniff and gamble where it please, until the owner whistles and back on the lead it goes.
Of course, if you dont believe in omnipotent deities, its no proof of anything at all. Which was my point on that : other beliefs can impact on your readiness to believe, or disbelieve in other things. Again, it proves nothing either way.

[Maha]

Omnipotence is the key : if a deity can intervene and thwart your free will, then, actually, you dont have it, save at their leave. With an omnipotent deity free will is no better than a dog, running around the park who may sniff and gamble where it please, until the owner whistles and back on the lead it goes.
Of course, if you dont believe in omnipotent deities, its no proof of anything at all. Which was my point on that : other beliefs can impact on your readiness to believe, or disbelieve in other things. Again, it proves nothing either way.

i agree that it's no prove. as i said, we cannot prove anythings existence
the problem with omnipotence (the theological doctrine that some being totally able to do everything is that it is a man made doctrine that is easily falsified "can an Omnipotent being create a rock that is so heavy that he cannot lift it?" it is an attempt to describe God, to put him in a box we can understand and relate to.

from the mainstream christian point of view did God never override our ability to make choices. The (double-) predestian doctrine of the ultra reformed allows free will in all aspects of life but for the choice to believe in Jesus Christ. for some reason is mankind, in their view, unable to make a choice.
beliefs based on karma (hinduism, buddhism etc.) is life partly based on former (previous life) choices and partly of free will. i don't know of any belief system that advocates the total absence of free will.

for me, i belief (chose to believe) that i have free will. i cannot but do so, all my senses and memories prove it to me. But who am i? i cannot even prove that i exist to myself.

[Most Lee Harmless]

Its very hard to prove, or disprove, abstract concepts : how they can be useful is to provide a framework of 'short-cuts' when dealing with the unknown : rather than sit there exhaustively working through all possible permutations of possibilities and explanations for why one is more likely than another, we 'trust' an over-riding principle to provide a simplified 'best answer' and then just get on with life. Which is fine enough: one may believe a 'god' will protect them whilst crossing a precarious bridge ; the other may believe the engineer who built it knew their math : providing they both get across the bridge safely they are both 'right' and both continue their journey no worse off for their ignorance : for there may not be a god and the engineer was a drunk and maybe got their math wrong.

[Grimrock Litless]

Bump!

[sXs]

Just to give a bit of personal insight to Daniks point.

My final exam for freshman philosophy class some 30 years ago was what seemed to be a simple exercise.

The professor walked into the room the day of our final exam. He pulled the chair out from behind his desk and put in the front center of the room.

"For your final exam, I want you to prove this chair exists. There are no word count requirements. Simple essay form."

I got an A on the exam. My answer......

"What chair."

The point of the exam was not so much about proof of one thing or another, but of the ability to rationalize belief itself. Beliefs, faith, good, evil, right and wrong, are all simply self imposed thought processes we come up with ourselves to explain our daily interactions with the world around us.

[Grimrock Litless]

Just to give a bit of personal insight to Daniks point.

My final exam for freshman philosophy class some 30 years ago was what seemed to be a simple exercise.

The professor walked into the room the day of our final exam. He pulled the chair out from behind his desk and put in the front center of the room.

"For your final exam, I want you to prove this chair exists. There are no word count requirements. Simple essay form."

I got an A on the exam. My answer......

"What chair."

The point of the exam was not so much about proof of one thing or another, but of the ability to rationalize belief itself. Beliefs, faith, good, evil, right and wrong, are all simply self imposed thought processes we come up with ourselves to explain our daily interactions with the world around us.

Thunderf00t said something to a creationist before, "We can't prove if the universe exist or not, but we humans, each and everyone of us, managed to evolve a brain that allows us to model the universe and make sense of it."

[Jack Teach]

Just to give a bit of personal insight to Daniks point.

My final exam for freshman philosophy class some 30 years ago was what seemed to be a simple exercise.

The professor walked into the room the day of our final exam. He pulled the chair out from behind his desk and put in the front center of the room.

"For your final exam, I want you to prove this chair exists. There are no word count requirements. Simple essay form."

I got an A on the exam. My answer......

"What chair."

The point of the exam was not so much about proof of one thing or another, but of the ability to rationalize belief itself. Beliefs, faith, good, evil, right and wrong, are all simply self imposed thought processes we come up with ourselves to explain our daily interactions with the world around us.

Thunderf00t said something to a creationist before, "We can't prove if the universe exist or not, but we humans, each and everyone of us, managed to evolve a brain that allows us to model the universe and make sense of it."

Just curious how we can live in the universe and cannot prove it exists whilst we are already living in it.