Pirate Rankings and Bonuses

[Shadowood]

Very interesting topic. One I thank SHM for bringing up. His idea is simple and not game breaking by any means.

I am not sure about added extra skirmish points as a reward when we already have a tech that can be researched for that. That part seems like double dipping.
Zero turns for skirmish is also a bit much. Turns are a commodity in this game. Maybe make it 1 turn.

I do agree there needs to be some extra perks introduced for pirates and pirate held ports. There are several forum topics regarding this subject.

I will also say I agree with 99% of what Vane has said. His arguments are just. I am not a pirate but know what it takes to be one. It is tough, way tougher then any other play style in the game. ''Tis why I am a hybrid player.

My honest feeling on this subject is Flagship and some tweaks to a pirate held port would be enough incentive for a pirate in my mind that all other ideas could be tossed out.

[Most Lee Harmless]

No simpler than putting 5 trade ships in a fleet and clicking set up trade route, oh wait.. skirmishing needs to be done daily and to hunt bars takes quite a bit of strategy and stalking, I suppose there still is a larger effort put in than watching those fleets move port to port..

If any idiot can skirmish, I suppose anything with a pulse or worse off can trade...


Leave it to Danik to call the entire player base idiots...

A game without skill is a game for Idiots : any idiot can set up a trade route : it takes skill to set up the RIGHT trade route : to finesse the fleet to maximise the capacity, the run times, to calculate the defence required, or calculate that none is required and take the risk of occasional loss instead of certainty of paying the daily upkeep : any idiot can leave the same route running regardless : it takes time, application and thought to monitor each route and, if necessary, change it to a better one.

You allude to it yourself : any idiot can hit the skirmish button : it takes skill and planning to hit that button at the RIGHT time.

If I do everything 'RIGHT' then I should suffer the minimum of losses and the maximum of earnings : that applies to merchant, privateer, noble, pirate or whatever mix of play-style floats your boat.

I think its an idiots game when no matter how 'RIGHT' you play, you will still lose randomly to another who uses no skill or art at all using a mechanic built into the game to ensure exactly that.

[Sanji]

+1
only for the fact it's beneficial for pirates.

i do not agree with plunder points, we could add ransom a port pays to the pirate the pirate's capture and also a feature that makes them do bidding for any nation that pay them the money,
plus a flagship for sure and defiantly a position of pirate king.
i also think that pirate can plunder any ship they defeat (limited to one and mow and sotl are not allowed)

these are my points , but a lot others made a very strong points as well.

[Maha]

while skirmishing is not difficult to do, it is the bread and water of a pirate.
just like running a trade route is for a merchant.
the last doesn't require turns or points. just keep them running.

a step up is using the brain to select the highest potential in skirmishing or the best trade route
next comes the use of voodoo. to bring fleets on the plunderboard or to improve trade profit.
on top comes voodoo to steal ships and for merchants boons like banks, goldsmithing etc.
most merchants join a port nation to gain extra boons and income from that. (but that's beside my point.)

what Vane is saying and i agree with is that it's almost impossible to develop as a pirate because the limitation on the bread and water of the pirates trade. a merchant can expand his trade fleets and so achieve the higher steps on his ladder. a beginning pirate is stuck with 3 skirmishes per day and with luck a plunder raid that's initiated by others. this forces a player to become a merchant in order to become a pirate somewhere in the far future. After the little war i was involved in i kept only a few trade fleets.
although i do make a decent income with my pirate tech, i struggle to develop my hideout further.
i do not complain, it's my choice and i can easily revert to trading again. but why should i be forced to trade to become a better pirate?

yes skirmishing is easy, so what. does that make a pirate lazy?
casting hn's for profit does't really require much braincells either, once you have the means. but to do that as a way of living is not appreciated.
what is a pirate allowed to do to make a profit? all piracy action hurts an innocent merchants interest after all?

[Most Lee Harmless]

The merchant doesnt develop in isolation to the game: they are still subject to the same problems of development : achieving critical mass is one way to describe it : they are vulnerable to attacks and great loss while they build their infrastructures, their reserves, their defences : many lose their way and their interest in that struggle too : thats why we see inactives fleets lit up and looted on a regular basis. Will a pure merchant ultimately earn far more than a pirate? Yes. Will a pirate have more fun on the way? Yes. And the pirates needs lots of rich merchants to feed off. But why should the pirate get all the same benefits as the merchant but deserve an easier path to taking plunder off the merchants? The pirate chooses to stand outside nations : Along with that comes standing outside the benefits too. The merchant needs to earn to play the nation game, to further their trade : the pirate doesnt need nations at all : the pirate doesnt need to earn billions to pay for influence, or ranking missions, or populations, or warehouses or officers.
It is not impossible to develop as a pirate : It is hard and so it should be : the same applies to all paths to glory. No pain, no gain.

I'll add this : usually, if everyone is unhappy, its probably balanced just about right : I'm reminded of the old Woody Allen joke : he is asked about his sex life, he replies, 'Barely any, once a week maybe' cut to his 'wife' being asked the same question : 'Incessant, every week!'

[Maha]

But why should the pirate get all the same benefits as the merchant but deserve an easier path to taking plunder off the merchants?

this is an misleading statement. pirates do not get the same benefits as merchants nor does he ask for those benefits. statements like that are imo made to avoid arguing the real issue. pirates are forced to do trade to become better pirates. where a merchant can expand his business a pirate cannot, he's bound by skirmish points. was it only a matter of turns than Danik would have a point when he writes that it is a matter of smart choices. but no matter how turns are invested 3 skirmish points per day stay 3. not until millions are invested in hideout and skirmish tech. can you repay the loans needed to get 1 more skirmish point per day? (can a pirate take a loan??)

the same for the inactive argument. do most of them die of boredom or from unstopping attacks on them.
pirates live of the merchants, that's a fact one does not need to like but to live with. pirates are forced out of their preferred gamestyle because of the current system.

[sXs]

Everyone wants more action, but no one wants to risk their holdings to get it. Pirates drive action and aren't afraid to take risks, yet no one wants pirates around.

I wonder how fun and enjoyable the game becomes without pirates? What happens when they all quit and start trading? Why have any offensive or defensive voodoo then? Why have the ability to add cannons or build warships? I've heard the words "Traders Glory" so many times in my years playing this game and never once felt them more fitting than I do today seeing the direction so many wish to take the game. Quite disappointing really.

I'm quite tired of hearing "Traders/Merchants Glory". Its called Pirates Glory for a reason. The word glory in its use here means "high renown or honor won by notable achievements." Contrary to what society thinks, you don't earn praise and glory for doing something easy. You earn it by accomplishing the difficult. Edison, Einstein, Tesla, etc. earned their "glory", not by taking the easy route, but by pushing the boundaries of their fields and accomplishing the difficult. Pirates are same. Being a pirate is supposed to be difficult, and I find it quite disappointing that players fail to see that succeeding as a pirate in a game where piracy is extremely difficult is the true honor. Thus why it is called Pirates Glory.

That being said, I have no qualms with providing some perks to pirates; however, those perks should not so to speak "level the playing field". If piracy becomes too easy, there will be no glory in it.

I see your point Deez. The life of a pirate should be difficult. I don't think Vane is arguing that point. It should be the most difficult path chosen. But by choosing the most difficult path, shouldn't the reward be greater? Where is the reward for choosing the path of a pirate?

What do pirates get for success? As much as you hate to keep hearing the Trades Glory moniker for the game, that is what it is becoming. Early on I talked to vets about becoming a pirate, and they were the ones that admitted to me that this was the path of the game. I didn't come up with the moniker.

Vane is trying to do the very thing you claim the title of the game dictates and just asking for a few tweaks, not to make the life of a pirate easy or advantageous, but to make the life of a pirate possible.

[ChaIbaud]

Vane isn't asking for a way to have an easier life, just a less hard way to live at all. The current balance of Pirate vs Merchant is one that has a clearly more beneficial and consistently profitable way that most choose. Why not give an incentive to pull more to the other side because the only significant benefit to being a Pirate is halved upkeep costs which isn't much considering these people keep a low number of ships, meaning upkeep costs are already low. No distinction exists in mechanics- only in gameplay, and when a suggestion is made to give any sort of edge, no matter how dull it may be, the thought of a more posing threat to their lifestyle strikes fear into most Merchants who normally discuss how boring the game is due to lack of competition and make suggestions for more Merchant vs Merchant possibilities because being a Pirate is, currently, not a wise decision for most.

[Most Lee Harmless]

If a pirate wishes to get as rich as a merchant without being a merchant, then they need to steal a big chunk of the riches that merchants have accumulated : that will need a fair number of already rich merchants per wannabee-rich pirate : it also means for the pirate to stay rich they need a continuing supply of rich merchants to make into poorer merchants : there is the other side of the equation : if the pirates are getting as rich as merchants at the expense of the merchants, who will want to be the rich merchant who gets to become a poor merchant in order to fund the pirates growing wealth?
How easy do we make it for pirates? Where is the point that being a merchant becomes the path to poverty? But what then of the pirate? who do they rob when the merchants run out? Well, they will rob each other, I suppose : But no new wealth will be coming into the economy at that point : so, richer pirates will live by making other rich pirates into poor pirates in an ever -diminishing circle of chasing the last gold coin in the game.
At which point, one presumes they all cry foul and go become merchants, cos thats where the money is now.

[sXs]

Vane isn't asking for a way to have an easier life, just a less hard way to live at all. The current balance of Pirate vs Merchant is one that has a clearly more beneficial and consistently profitable way that most choose. Why not give an incentive to pull more to the other side because the only significant benefit to being a Pirate is halved upkeep costs which isn't much considering these people keep a low number of ships, meaning upkeep costs are already low. No distinction exists in mechanics- only in gameplay, and when a suggestion is made to give any sort of edge, no matter how dull it may be, the thought of a more posing threat to their lifestyle strikes fear into most Merchants who normally discuss how boring the game is due to lack of competition and make suggestions for more Merchant vs Merchant possibilities because being a Pirate is, currently, not a wise decision for most.

Perfect point made here. The fact that a recent thread was title Merchant v Merchant shows the need for a few changes.
chal for catching that.

+1