Ships Market and Hideout Shipwright

[Roberts]

Yeah, that is one way : Wait until the player is online ; Then if he does not pay within 3 day's the ship is renewed in the ship market... Almost like Ebay sometimes..

[Captain Jack]

This is not what I meant.
Anyway, I am still in favor of a voodoo-like aution. Easier to implement and use. Only credits. I have already posted a workaround using banks for getting your gold coins: Banks should always be ready to get your credits by giving gold coins.
viewtopic.php?t=1452&p=18975#p18975

[Sebena]

yes I am interessted in selling ships like my description says. I believe that it will bring more buyers and to be honest as long as I can get my money from selling ship I don't care about who ordered/buy it and how he will use it or protect it. What concernes me personally is that all money which I got through selling ships went in improving my trade routes and ships if I have to pay millions and millions for captains so that I could grow on trade level or war level I don't see income in selling ships if I have to spend more than I can get no matter where I build it in market shipwright or in hideout and shipwright there

[Roberts]

This is not what I meant.
Anyway, I am still in favor of a voodoo-like aution. Easier to implement and use. Only credits. I have already posted a workaround using banks for getting your gold coins: Banks should always be ready to get your credits by giving gold coins.
viewtopic.php?t=1452&p=18975#p18975

I am just giving ideas... For once...

[Captain Jack]

The demand of ships should be great as there is a 3 digit number of ships built daily. A 3-digit number that will fall dramatically as there will be many players that will prefer turns-free ships.

In fact, until rnough player run shipwrights start operating at an acceptable rate, the ships market should be near empty as demand will be much higher than supply.

[Francois le Clerc]

I will be supplying 10 ships a day and only

[Cdv]

The captain issue is a complicated one. Right now, the only check is done on the shipwright. On commandeer and plunder no checks are run. This allows expansion beyond the captain count which is an acceptable method as at one hand we reward plundering with an extra way and at another commandeer is a limited card.

For market, it does not sound like a good idea not to count the captain. The problem is when to count it? At the bidding phase or at the pickup phase? And what if someone does not pick it manually and the time to deliver it arrives?

Another problem is why one should have a captain when they are not going to use the ship but sell it?

This creates the necessity to have one check for all cases and this check must be on the fleet level. When you try to put a ship on a fleet, it will require a captain. It is only logical after all.

I understand this is a change that need to be communicated before implemented. Therefore I will announce it now and we will put it in the next Avonmora Herald issue. We need to allow some time to everyone to adjust to the change, so expect about 15 days before this changes. Ships market will most probably be released much sooner than this.

I do not think that the proposed captains check change is the right move. Leaving aside the obvious disadvantage to large merchants who have more ships than captains, the proposed change is bad for medium-sized pirates and privateers too. Take for example a player who has 100 captains but who has also plundered 50 ships, i.e. a total of 150 ships. If he were to buy an Sotl from the ships market for his war fleet, he would have to buy 51 captains at a cost of around 28+ million - the cost of a level 10 MoW! This will be the same if he were to plunder that Sotl, or even a MoW, from another player. He cannot add it to his fleet without a huge expense and his only option is to sell them. Or leave them out of fleet where they can be commandeered. To me, this seems like a penalty for plundering, rather than rewarding it. My biggest concern, though, is that with the proposed change, a player who is understaffed will lose almost all control on configuring their fleets. The strategies they can use will be severely limited by this.

What I would suggest would be that the captains check be done when a player wants to buy a ship from the ships market. This would be similar to building a ship from the shipwright. It will prevent those who are understaffed from buying from the ships market, but it will keep the status quo otherwise. And as for why a player should get a captain if he wants to sell the ship, well, he can always use the extra captain for his next purchase, so it is not a problem.

On another note, I like the idea of ships being sold for credits and banks being used to buy and sell credits. It saves the hassle of having to be online when a large sale is made. Perhaps, there can be a limit to which banks can do these transactions(e.g., levels 10 and above, or levels 5+). Or otherwise, the transactions will be limited by the size of the client's bank account.

Just my two gold coins' worth.

[Black sparrow]

On the captains issue, I will side with Cdv here.

While I agree on the arguments and the theory that this should have been already implemented, we need to look to the facts and accept that it was not implemented. Therefore we must not judge it as a game feature and as a "Bug" but instead as a game change. Players have adjusted their strategies for too long on this,therefore it is only natural to do this.

The change is too drastic as it will affect plundering as well and I do not think that even the devs want this. I suggest you take Cdv's proposal and implement it for ships market only. There is always plenty of time later to take it one step further, if it is needed.

[Sebena]

I agree with cdv that when this becomes implemented will treat plundering as penalty and not reward

[Captain Jack]

On the captains issue, I am not entirely convinced yet but I am surely shaken.

The main argument here, seem to be plundering proposed handicap. Plunderers however will:
1)Not be blocked from plundering excessive ships OR even buying them
2)Most probably sell the ships once they get them, not use them (no use of captains)

The cost of possessing a fleet needs an overhead price and officers are a good way. Perhaps an even better would be an upkeep cost but such would create more micromanagement than we want. This is why captains were added and I thought of reminding it here.

My biggest concern, though, is that with the proposed change, a player who is understaffed will lose almost all control on configuring their fleets.

I can accept this. However, also consider this, from our point of view:
-There are currently 21 Billions of Gold sitting unused in Nation Treasuries, Bank Vaults, Earth holes and pockets. Not to mention the wealth hidden in resources and ships.

So, the players who are understaffed, will get an extra obstacle, agreed. The game however has its methods to provide the needed cash to these players in order to buy the extra captains they need. I am sure that there more than enough banks that can help with loans towards this direction.

In the same time, there are players who run with enough captains. These have already been there, done that. It only sounds fair for all to follow in what sounds nice.

Also, you solution to do the check on the shipwright creates an issue for those that want to buy and sell ships. Someone, should not be limited by captains if all he wants to do is to trade ships. This means that the current check in shipwright will be removed.

Black Sparrow, I admitted above that we were aware of the issue but we had no problem maintaining it. Perhaps you mistake this with my comments to the ships-fame issue.
The change is not as drastic as it will not affect plundering as much as you both think. Plundering practices are different from the ones described above.

Like I said in my first post, I am not convinced yet, but it was a good discussion so far and I am looking forward to more arguments.

As it seems, the more we discuss this, the more certain it becomes that credits are a highway in ship trading.

Regarding levels, I heard this from 2 more players already and I agree that a level restriction is needed.
Perhaps, we can allow banks to sell gold coins for credits at level 10 and then at level 15 also allow them to buy gold coins by spending credits. Let me know what you think of this.

The transactions will respect all current limits.